Help with Biped Design and Implementation... Need Advice...

Discussions regarding building a walking robot at home. Most of the robots participating at Robo-One competitions are custom fabricated.
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Help with Biped Design and Implementation... Need Advice...

Post by NullARC » Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:23 am

Post by NullARC
Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:23 am

I was considering custom building a Robo-One style biped. However I was trying to think of all that would need to be done to complete the project.

I have good mechanical skills, so the actual design and construction wouldn't be difficult for me. I also think I have a good enough background in electronics for that aspect not to be too much of a hurdle.

What does concern me however is (1) once I have figured out how I want to assemble the robot, how do I actually make the parts. For example, how do I fabricate the actual brackets that hold the servos together? The only reasonable way I can think of is if you either have your own a /milling machine, or you have the parts made by a 3rd party. Which, I am afraid would be VERY expensive. And I think trying to cut the pieces of aluminum out and bending them precisely would be nearly impossible. (not to mention incredibly time consuming!) The other thing that concerns me (2) is my lack of programming experience.

I found something that I found intriguing. It was something that 'tempusmaster' stated in another post about a custom Robo-One named EMMA. I asked how much torque would be needed to execute a certain move. Here is the response:

Not that much. Keep in mind that EMMA is pretty short and light. Since torque is force*distance if you keep the size small enough then you can really decrease the necessary torque. That's how Takara/TOMY was able to design their tiny biped and keep the target price under $350.


The intriguing thing to me was a biped that was built for $350.00. That, to me is pretty amazing!

Part of why EMMA was so inexpensive is the fact that it uses relatively low torque / INEXPENSIVE servos and his diminutive size. (approximately 8" tall.)


So, in that vein, how would you go about building the rest of the robot for a reasonable price? (i.e. cheaply and effectively fabricate the brackets) Or might their be a reasonable alternative? Such as is there a place that sells versatile brackets for a reasonable price that I don't know about?

I tried to find additional info on EMMA, but alas, being a robot of Japanese origin, most of the information on him is in Japanese... and I only read english. :oops:

As far as programming goes, could someone point me to a (preferably english :wink:) website or book that details programming for bipedal walking.

Thanks in advance for your time and help!

- Marc

P.S. - If you've made it through another one of my 'novels'... thanks!! :oops:
I was considering custom building a Robo-One style biped. However I was trying to think of all that would need to be done to complete the project.

I have good mechanical skills, so the actual design and construction wouldn't be difficult for me. I also think I have a good enough background in electronics for that aspect not to be too much of a hurdle.

What does concern me however is (1) once I have figured out how I want to assemble the robot, how do I actually make the parts. For example, how do I fabricate the actual brackets that hold the servos together? The only reasonable way I can think of is if you either have your own a /milling machine, or you have the parts made by a 3rd party. Which, I am afraid would be VERY expensive. And I think trying to cut the pieces of aluminum out and bending them precisely would be nearly impossible. (not to mention incredibly time consuming!) The other thing that concerns me (2) is my lack of programming experience.

I found something that I found intriguing. It was something that 'tempusmaster' stated in another post about a custom Robo-One named EMMA. I asked how much torque would be needed to execute a certain move. Here is the response:

Not that much. Keep in mind that EMMA is pretty short and light. Since torque is force*distance if you keep the size small enough then you can really decrease the necessary torque. That's how Takara/TOMY was able to design their tiny biped and keep the target price under $350.


The intriguing thing to me was a biped that was built for $350.00. That, to me is pretty amazing!

Part of why EMMA was so inexpensive is the fact that it uses relatively low torque / INEXPENSIVE servos and his diminutive size. (approximately 8" tall.)


So, in that vein, how would you go about building the rest of the robot for a reasonable price? (i.e. cheaply and effectively fabricate the brackets) Or might their be a reasonable alternative? Such as is there a place that sells versatile brackets for a reasonable price that I don't know about?

I tried to find additional info on EMMA, but alas, being a robot of Japanese origin, most of the information on him is in Japanese... and I only read english. :oops:

As far as programming goes, could someone point me to a (preferably english :wink:) website or book that details programming for bipedal walking.

Thanks in advance for your time and help!

- Marc

P.S. - If you've made it through another one of my 'novels'... thanks!! :oops:
Last edited by NullARC on Sun Dec 10, 2006 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by tempusmaster » Sat Dec 09, 2006 10:27 am

Post by tempusmaster
Sat Dec 09, 2006 10:27 am

Nice photo. :roll:

The Takara-Tomy robot is different from EMMA. Their projected sales price in Japan is around $350 as an off the shelf product.

EMMA's bill of materials cost was very low primarily because Nakano bought low cost servos and then put in about two years hand crafting all the other parts including custom PIC based controller boards.

Anyway, if you are willing to dedicate the time to it, reasonably functioning humanoids can be built using a wide range of materials including aluminum, plexiglass/plastic, and even plywood.
Nice photo. :roll:

The Takara-Tomy robot is different from EMMA. Their projected sales price in Japan is around $350 as an off the shelf product.

EMMA's bill of materials cost was very low primarily because Nakano bought low cost servos and then put in about two years hand crafting all the other parts including custom PIC based controller boards.

Anyway, if you are willing to dedicate the time to it, reasonably functioning humanoids can be built using a wide range of materials including aluminum, plexiglass/plastic, and even plywood.
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Post by rebuildit » Sun Dec 10, 2006 4:52 am

Post by rebuildit
Sun Dec 10, 2006 4:52 am

Now whats the chance of being able to get one? I think it looks sharp!
Now whats the chance of being able to get one? I think it looks sharp!
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Post by NullARC » Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:17 am

Post by NullARC
Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:17 am

tempusmaster wrote:Nice photo. :roll:


oops! I can't remember exactly where that pic came from, but chances are very good that it was swiped from Robots-Dreams. Have I mentioned what a great site it is??!! You should all go check it out!

There, I hope I've covered my copyright infringement... :lol: :wink: :lol:

tempusmaster wrote:
The Takara-Tomy robot is different from EMMA. Their projected sales price in Japan is around $350 as an off the shelf product.


Ok, I get it... I misunderstood one of your replies again. :oops: I'm gettin' too good at that! :lol: Is there anywhere I can find info on the Takara-Tomy robot?

Thanks again!
tempusmaster wrote:Nice photo. :roll:


oops! I can't remember exactly where that pic came from, but chances are very good that it was swiped from Robots-Dreams. Have I mentioned what a great site it is??!! You should all go check it out!

There, I hope I've covered my copyright infringement... :lol: :wink: :lol:

tempusmaster wrote:
The Takara-Tomy robot is different from EMMA. Their projected sales price in Japan is around $350 as an off the shelf product.


Ok, I get it... I misunderstood one of your replies again. :oops: I'm gettin' too good at that! :lol: Is there anywhere I can find info on the Takara-Tomy robot?

Thanks again!
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Post by tempusmaster » Sun Dec 10, 2006 3:47 pm

Post by tempusmaster
Sun Dec 10, 2006 3:47 pm

NullARC wrote:
tempusmaster wrote:Nice photo. :roll:


oops! I can't remember exactly where that pic came from, but chances are very good that it was swiped from Robots-Dreams. Have I mentioned what a great site it is??!! You should all go check it out!

There, I hope I've covered my copyright infringement... :lol: :wink: :lol:


It may have been Robots Dreams, but it's more likely that it was lifted from the Robot Magazine article that I did for them.

Anyway, it's not a big issue. It just seemed rather odd in a post that was asking for help.
tempusmaster wrote:
The Takara-Tomy robot is different from EMMA. Their projected sales price in Japan is around $350 as an off the shelf product.


Ok, I get it... I misunderstood one of your replies again. :oops: I'm gettin' too good at that! :lol: Is there anywhere I can find info on the Takara-Tomy robot?


The first two links in this Robots Dreams search should give you enough information.
NullARC wrote:
tempusmaster wrote:Nice photo. :roll:


oops! I can't remember exactly where that pic came from, but chances are very good that it was swiped from Robots-Dreams. Have I mentioned what a great site it is??!! You should all go check it out!

There, I hope I've covered my copyright infringement... :lol: :wink: :lol:


It may have been Robots Dreams, but it's more likely that it was lifted from the Robot Magazine article that I did for them.

Anyway, it's not a big issue. It just seemed rather odd in a post that was asking for help.
tempusmaster wrote:
The Takara-Tomy robot is different from EMMA. Their projected sales price in Japan is around $350 as an off the shelf product.


Ok, I get it... I misunderstood one of your replies again. :oops: I'm gettin' too good at that! :lol: Is there anywhere I can find info on the Takara-Tomy robot?


The first two links in this Robots Dreams search should give you enough information.
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Post by NullARC » Sun Dec 10, 2006 4:39 pm

Post by NullARC
Sun Dec 10, 2006 4:39 pm

tempusmaster wrote: It may have been Robots Dreams, but it's more likely that it was lifted from the Robot Magazine article that I did for them.

Anyway, it's not a big issue. It just seemed rather odd in a post that was asking for help.


I'm very sorry if this is an unacceptable practice. I assumed that if an image was posted on the WWW and had no copyright protection (i.e. you simply can't right click and save.) that using an image for reference to a question would be ok. I would certainly understand if I was using it to sell something. That would not be acceptable.

Just let me know what is acceptable on this forum and I'll comply! :D
I certainly do not want to offend you, you are the one of the few people to answer my crazy questions! :lol:
tempusmaster wrote: It may have been Robots Dreams, but it's more likely that it was lifted from the Robot Magazine article that I did for them.

Anyway, it's not a big issue. It just seemed rather odd in a post that was asking for help.


I'm very sorry if this is an unacceptable practice. I assumed that if an image was posted on the WWW and had no copyright protection (i.e. you simply can't right click and save.) that using an image for reference to a question would be ok. I would certainly understand if I was using it to sell something. That would not be acceptable.

Just let me know what is acceptable on this forum and I'll comply! :D
I certainly do not want to offend you, you are the one of the few people to answer my crazy questions! :lol:
"She'll make point five past lightspeed. She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts, kid. I've made a lot of special modifications myself."
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Post by Robo1 » Sun Dec 10, 2006 4:47 pm

Post by Robo1
Sun Dec 10, 2006 4:47 pm

The more robot porn the better :lol:

bren
The more robot porn the better :lol:

bren
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Post by beermat » Sun Dec 10, 2006 5:44 pm

Post by beermat
Sun Dec 10, 2006 5:44 pm

NullARC wrote:I assumed that if an image was posted on the WWW and had no copyright protection (i.e. you simply can't right click and save.) that using an image for reference to a question would be ok


Errr, taking this off topic totally, but a piece of work created privately and originally has automatic copyright protection by law, copyright notice or not. Copyright protection is a term of law, not a means of prevention of copying the work (by saving an image, photocopying an original manuscript, sampling a recorded track, etc). For instance, is property in your house fair game and legal to take if it isn't nailed/chained/screwed down?! Of course not, and the same applies to copyrighted work - it does not need to be secured to be protected by law.

In most public forums, it is generally polite and acceptable to give a credit to the copyright creator if you reference an image, an essay, etc. If you are not passing it off as your own work and are referencing it, you fall more into the 'fair use' category, or do not incur the ire of a copyright owner who may have a legit. beef.
NullARC wrote:I assumed that if an image was posted on the WWW and had no copyright protection (i.e. you simply can't right click and save.) that using an image for reference to a question would be ok


Errr, taking this off topic totally, but a piece of work created privately and originally has automatic copyright protection by law, copyright notice or not. Copyright protection is a term of law, not a means of prevention of copying the work (by saving an image, photocopying an original manuscript, sampling a recorded track, etc). For instance, is property in your house fair game and legal to take if it isn't nailed/chained/screwed down?! Of course not, and the same applies to copyrighted work - it does not need to be secured to be protected by law.

In most public forums, it is generally polite and acceptable to give a credit to the copyright creator if you reference an image, an essay, etc. If you are not passing it off as your own work and are referencing it, you fall more into the 'fair use' category, or do not incur the ire of a copyright owner who may have a legit. beef.
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Post by NullARC » Sun Dec 10, 2006 9:46 pm

Post by NullARC
Sun Dec 10, 2006 9:46 pm

I would SERIOUSLY like to FORMALLY apologize to Mr. Lem Fugitt (tempusmaster) for the infringement on his article and use of images from the article "ROBO-ONE 10 – A Gallery of Humanoid Robot Competition in Japan" from the website for ROBOT Magazine published by Maplegate Media Group. http://botmag.com/index.shtml

It is a very interesting article and can be found here:
http://botmag.com/articles/robo_one_ten.shtml

Please understand that my use of the photo was not intended to be offensive in any way! And was solely used as a reference to a question about the workings of a certain robot. I did not notice that Mr. Fugitt, author of the Robot Magazine article, and the screen name "tempusmaster", were the same person. I have edited the post and removed the offending image.

I hope that I can still be a respected member of the Robosavvy Forum community. I truly appreciate and value the time, expertise and information so generously shared here on this forum.

- Marc Dicintio
I would SERIOUSLY like to FORMALLY apologize to Mr. Lem Fugitt (tempusmaster) for the infringement on his article and use of images from the article "ROBO-ONE 10 – A Gallery of Humanoid Robot Competition in Japan" from the website for ROBOT Magazine published by Maplegate Media Group. http://botmag.com/index.shtml

It is a very interesting article and can be found here:
http://botmag.com/articles/robo_one_ten.shtml

Please understand that my use of the photo was not intended to be offensive in any way! And was solely used as a reference to a question about the workings of a certain robot. I did not notice that Mr. Fugitt, author of the Robot Magazine article, and the screen name "tempusmaster", were the same person. I have edited the post and removed the offending image.

I hope that I can still be a respected member of the Robosavvy Forum community. I truly appreciate and value the time, expertise and information so generously shared here on this forum.

- Marc Dicintio
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Post by tempusmaster » Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:45 am

Post by tempusmaster
Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:45 am

Marc,

Cool it. I'm not upset.

If you had asked I would have given permission, or if you had used the image and included a credit link I never would have said anything about it. I just thought it was pretty lame to include the photo without any credit in a post requesting help. :wink:
Marc,

Cool it. I'm not upset.

If you had asked I would have given permission, or if you had used the image and included a credit link I never would have said anything about it. I just thought it was pretty lame to include the photo without any credit in a post requesting help. :wink:
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Post by NullARC » Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:09 pm

Post by NullARC
Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:09 pm

Ok, got it. I understand the mistake.

I'll make sure that any reference I make from now on includes credit.

NOW, enough of this junk, lets get back to robotics! :D
Ok, got it. I understand the mistake.

I'll make sure that any reference I make from now on includes credit.

NOW, enough of this junk, lets get back to robotics! :D
"She'll make point five past lightspeed. She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts, kid. I've made a lot of special modifications myself."
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Post by srobot » Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:59 pm

Post by srobot
Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:59 pm

Hi
For the bracets you could buy them from Lynx motion (http://www.lynxmotion.com) and for the controler maybe you could
use a reddy made one. I'll keep an eye open for more. :wink:

--srobot
Hi
For the bracets you could buy them from Lynx motion (http://www.lynxmotion.com) and for the controler maybe you could
use a reddy made one. I'll keep an eye open for more. :wink:

--srobot
Last edited by srobot on Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by NullARC » Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:22 pm

Post by NullARC
Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:22 pm

Yeah, Lynx Motion would be an obvious choice, I agree. My only hang up is that, as many people have stated, LM seems to be a bit pricey for what you get. Also I think the pieces end up kind of "clunky" looking. But hey, when they're the only game in town, you really can't complain I guess.

I generally have pretty "grand" expectations for what I want my creations to look and perform like. (ok, you might say unrealistic expectations :? ) But a guy has to dream right?? :)
Yeah, Lynx Motion would be an obvious choice, I agree. My only hang up is that, as many people have stated, LM seems to be a bit pricey for what you get. Also I think the pieces end up kind of "clunky" looking. But hey, when they're the only game in town, you really can't complain I guess.

I generally have pretty "grand" expectations for what I want my creations to look and perform like. (ok, you might say unrealistic expectations :? ) But a guy has to dream right?? :)
"She'll make point five past lightspeed. She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts, kid. I've made a lot of special modifications myself."
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Post by hivemind » Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:20 pm

Post by hivemind
Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:20 pm

Why not just design and make your own parts? That is what I am doing and it is working out well :) Plus you can get the nice look and grade aluminum for every bracket if you take the time. I posted earlier a rough idea of how to make brackets... but I suppose I can whip a tutorial for a low cost way of doing it... Christmas is coming up and my schedule will clear up a bit. I will try to make some time for a detailed tut for users who want to try it out.

-PM me if you want some quick ideas or designs before then.

Hive
Why not just design and make your own parts? That is what I am doing and it is working out well :) Plus you can get the nice look and grade aluminum for every bracket if you take the time. I posted earlier a rough idea of how to make brackets... but I suppose I can whip a tutorial for a low cost way of doing it... Christmas is coming up and my schedule will clear up a bit. I will try to make some time for a detailed tut for users who want to try it out.

-PM me if you want some quick ideas or designs before then.

Hive
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Post by srobot » Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:27 pm

Post by srobot
Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:27 pm

Hi
I jest remembered some thing about robot controler boards,
in the Robot magazine summer 2006 Harry Mueller had an
article about his six-servo biped and sayed that he made the controler
boad that it used! And the design came from Karl Williams book:
"Build Your Own Humanoid Robots : 6 Amazing and Affordable Projects"
from "McGraw-Hill"! I got this book a few days ago off Amazon and
have not reseved it yet (hope it comes soon). I down't now if this helps
because it can only run 6 servos and 1 sensor and is programed in
"C". Also you might try looking at different robo-one builders sites for
a controler board design.

http://www.amazon.com/Build-Your-Own-Humanoid-Robots/dp/0071422749/sr=1-1/qid=1165873539/ref=sr_1_1/104-9495313-0193554?ie=UTF8&s=books The book on bipeds

http://www.robo-one.com Use the excite translater. You can
serch robo-one teams here!

hope it helps!

--srobot
Hi
I jest remembered some thing about robot controler boards,
in the Robot magazine summer 2006 Harry Mueller had an
article about his six-servo biped and sayed that he made the controler
boad that it used! And the design came from Karl Williams book:
"Build Your Own Humanoid Robots : 6 Amazing and Affordable Projects"
from "McGraw-Hill"! I got this book a few days ago off Amazon and
have not reseved it yet (hope it comes soon). I down't now if this helps
because it can only run 6 servos and 1 sensor and is programed in
"C". Also you might try looking at different robo-one builders sites for
a controler board design.

http://www.amazon.com/Build-Your-Own-Humanoid-Robots/dp/0071422749/sr=1-1/qid=1165873539/ref=sr_1_1/104-9495313-0193554?ie=UTF8&s=books The book on bipeds

http://www.robo-one.com Use the excite translater. You can
serch robo-one teams here!

hope it helps!

--srobot
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