DARwIn-OP kit for only 6000 USD!

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DARwIn-OP kit for only 6000 USD!

Post by Gort » Wed May 11, 2011 9:26 pm

Post by Gort
Wed May 11, 2011 9:26 pm

Looks like Robotis will soon start selling a kit version of the OP!

http://mike-ibioloid.blogspot.com/2011/ ... in-op.html
Looks like Robotis will soon start selling a kit version of the OP!

http://mike-ibioloid.blogspot.com/2011/ ... in-op.html
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Post by PedroR » Thu May 12, 2011 10:51 am

Post by PedroR
Thu May 12, 2011 10:51 am

Hi Gort

We are quite surprised with this announcement as Robotis had not informed us at all about this. We were only aware of two versions (Deluxe for General public at 12 000 USD and Academic, slightly cheapper, which we were only authorized to sell to Universites)
We're trying to get that clarified.

In any case a 6 000 USD DARwIn does seem a sensible price tag for the Robot and it'd be great news if it materializes.

Thanks for the tip

Regards
Pedro.
Hi Gort

We are quite surprised with this announcement as Robotis had not informed us at all about this. We were only aware of two versions (Deluxe for General public at 12 000 USD and Academic, slightly cheapper, which we were only authorized to sell to Universites)
We're trying to get that clarified.

In any case a 6 000 USD DARwIn does seem a sensible price tag for the Robot and it'd be great news if it materializes.

Thanks for the tip

Regards
Pedro.
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Post by i-Bot » Thu May 12, 2011 11:16 am

Post by i-Bot
Thu May 12, 2011 11:16 am

Wow, Maybe marketing blunder by Robotis. Nothing like telling folks about a $6K robot when about to deliver a $12K one.

Thx. Gort for finding the Forbes article, very interesting. I guess their comments from we will not see an open source iRobot Warrior.
Wow, Maybe marketing blunder by Robotis. Nothing like telling folks about a $6K robot when about to deliver a $12K one.

Thx. Gort for finding the Forbes article, very interesting. I guess their comments from we will not see an open source iRobot Warrior.
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Post by Gort » Thu May 12, 2011 4:10 pm

Post by Gort
Thu May 12, 2011 4:10 pm

PedroR i will be interested in what you hear back!

That maybe a incorrect quote or misunderstanding.

Robotis may or may not be selling a parts kit!

If you buy all of the parts for a DARwIn-OP yourself it would cost you around 6000 dollars. That is what the quote should say. Which is great to hear because it is a open platform!

The interesting thing to think about though is the 6000 dollar USD markup by Robotis for an fully tested and assembled OP.
PedroR i will be interested in what you hear back!

That maybe a incorrect quote or misunderstanding.

Robotis may or may not be selling a parts kit!

If you buy all of the parts for a DARwIn-OP yourself it would cost you around 6000 dollars. That is what the quote should say. Which is great to hear because it is a open platform!

The interesting thing to think about though is the 6000 dollar USD markup by Robotis for an fully tested and assembled OP.
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Post by Tyberius » Thu May 12, 2011 4:52 pm

Post by Tyberius
Thu May 12, 2011 4:52 pm

i-Bot wrote:Wow, Maybe marketing blunder by Robotis. Nothing like telling folks about a $6K robot when about to deliver a $12K one.

Thx. Gort for finding the Forbes article, very interesting. I guess their comments from we will not see an open source iRobot Warrior.


You'd be surprised how much institutions are willing to pay for a pre-built, pre-tested, out of the box solution though. 12 grand is pretty reasonable for all that the Darwin-OP offers, as a ready to go robot platform.
i-Bot wrote:Wow, Maybe marketing blunder by Robotis. Nothing like telling folks about a $6K robot when about to deliver a $12K one.

Thx. Gort for finding the Forbes article, very interesting. I guess their comments from we will not see an open source iRobot Warrior.


You'd be surprised how much institutions are willing to pay for a pre-built, pre-tested, out of the box solution though. 12 grand is pretty reasonable for all that the Darwin-OP offers, as a ready to go robot platform.
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Post by i-Bot » Fri May 13, 2011 12:22 am

Post by i-Bot
Fri May 13, 2011 12:22 am

I agree $12K is reasonable for many institutions. Indeed many institutions are cautious of lower cost products, and larger budgets are often easier to gain than small (hint.. 5 off is 5 * more valuable research and a robocup team too)
However the true commercial perspective is yet to emerge and may surprise us all. An exciting year ahead.

Just not sure if Robotis were misquoted or why they confused the pricing. I guess it will become clearer when the individual MX28 price is available.
I agree $12K is reasonable for many institutions. Indeed many institutions are cautious of lower cost products, and larger budgets are often easier to gain than small (hint.. 5 off is 5 * more valuable research and a robocup team too)
However the true commercial perspective is yet to emerge and may surprise us all. An exciting year ahead.

Just not sure if Robotis were misquoted or why they confused the pricing. I guess it will become clearer when the individual MX28 price is available.
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Post by billyzelsnack » Fri May 13, 2011 2:44 pm

Post by billyzelsnack
Fri May 13, 2011 2:44 pm

i-Bot wrote:(hint.. 5 off is 5 * more valuable research and a robocup team too)


huh?
i-Bot wrote:(hint.. 5 off is 5 * more valuable research and a robocup team too)


huh?
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Post by PedroR » Fri May 13, 2011 3:03 pm

Post by PedroR
Fri May 13, 2011 3:03 pm

Hi

We are still waiting for a response from Robotis about this (our commercial contacts with them are on a business trip).

In any case, the more I think about the current line up for DARwIn the more I'm inclined to believe the 6k DARwIn is some mis understanding of the reporter.

Otherwise you'd have:
- DARwIn OP Deluxe - the GA version at 12k, pre assembled and with 2 year extended warranty (covers manufacturing defects and other malfunctions although I don't know exactly what's the "extent" of "extended warranty").

- DARwInOP Academic Edition - for Universities and research only (who are customers that can do self maintenance), also pre assembled but with only 1 year warranty covering manufacturing defects only.
This is a bit cheaper than the Deluxe version but still costs well above 6k.

So how would you justify the discount for the 6k kit? It would be cheaper just because it's un assembled?
That would mean that, depending on the edition, Robotis would be charging 4k - 6k extra for the work of pre assembling and testing the kit (plus packing extended warranty and a few extras in the case of the Deluxe version)

Let it be clear that this is my _personal_ option, as we have no official information from Robotis. Just sharing my thoughts.


On the other hand, the article does mention something that is very true: the cost of these robots should be coming down over the next years. I don't expect it to come down as fast as cell phone prices do for example (the peak lifetime of a Humanoid kit spans over 3 years and slowly declines after that period).

Boards like IGEP are quite cheap and embedded TEGRA boards as well as lower cost Fit PC style computers are around the corner. This would enable lower cost alternatives but this is still an area for hackers and research.

I don't think other manufacturers have yet understood that embedded (Linux) is the direction to go (apart from Nao and Robotis).
It may take a while for them to get there and develop lower cost out-of-the-box Kits to compete in this market segment.

Pedro.
Hi

We are still waiting for a response from Robotis about this (our commercial contacts with them are on a business trip).

In any case, the more I think about the current line up for DARwIn the more I'm inclined to believe the 6k DARwIn is some mis understanding of the reporter.

Otherwise you'd have:
- DARwIn OP Deluxe - the GA version at 12k, pre assembled and with 2 year extended warranty (covers manufacturing defects and other malfunctions although I don't know exactly what's the "extent" of "extended warranty").

- DARwInOP Academic Edition - for Universities and research only (who are customers that can do self maintenance), also pre assembled but with only 1 year warranty covering manufacturing defects only.
This is a bit cheaper than the Deluxe version but still costs well above 6k.

So how would you justify the discount for the 6k kit? It would be cheaper just because it's un assembled?
That would mean that, depending on the edition, Robotis would be charging 4k - 6k extra for the work of pre assembling and testing the kit (plus packing extended warranty and a few extras in the case of the Deluxe version)

Let it be clear that this is my _personal_ option, as we have no official information from Robotis. Just sharing my thoughts.


On the other hand, the article does mention something that is very true: the cost of these robots should be coming down over the next years. I don't expect it to come down as fast as cell phone prices do for example (the peak lifetime of a Humanoid kit spans over 3 years and slowly declines after that period).

Boards like IGEP are quite cheap and embedded TEGRA boards as well as lower cost Fit PC style computers are around the corner. This would enable lower cost alternatives but this is still an area for hackers and research.

I don't think other manufacturers have yet understood that embedded (Linux) is the direction to go (apart from Nao and Robotis).
It may take a while for them to get there and develop lower cost out-of-the-box Kits to compete in this market segment.

Pedro.
Last edited by PedroR on Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Gort » Fri May 13, 2011 10:40 pm

Post by Gort
Fri May 13, 2011 10:40 pm

Good points PedroR but I think a 6000.00 dollar USD price for all DARwIn-OP parts is very accurate.
Good points PedroR but I think a 6000.00 dollar USD price for all DARwIn-OP parts is very accurate.
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Post by PedroR » Mon May 16, 2011 9:40 am

Post by PedroR
Mon May 16, 2011 9:40 am

Hi Gort

We got some more information about this from Robotis. It is ocnfirmed that a kit around that price tag will indeed be released.

The 6k kit from what I understood is still a few months away. Unlike Bioloid where it's a "fluffy" kit where everything is documented and all is nicely packaged and ready to assemble, this 6k kit will be essentially a sum of parts and electronics.

From my understanding this means it clearly will be aimed at power users.

Quoting the information I got:
"[about a 6k kit] It was also commented by [...] who is willing to release fabrication information of all parts online.

ROBOTIS will only provide Actuators an Electronics which sums up to 6,000 USD
Timeline is not decided"


The email is not very specific but it hints at a few key points:
- "ROBOTIS will only provide Actuators an Electronics which sums up to 6,000 USD"
This probably means actuators + Robotis fabricated electronics (ie CM-730). Not sure if by this they mean they'll be including the FitPC2 as well as the webcam.


- "willing to release fabrication information of all parts online"
I also don't know what's the extent of this affirmation but it may hint that some of the parts (don't know which) may not be included in the price but designs for fabricating them will be available.

- I'm also not sure how it'll work in terms of warranty and support. It'll probably be limited and it'll likely be also a differentiating feature between the 3 editions now known.

In any case it looks like it will be an expert's or hacker's kit which is very cool and very exciting.

I wouldn't be surprised if Robotis is still not 100% clear how to got about all the details in this kit.
They take their time to think things over, listen a lot from distributors and take a long time for testing before releasing.

As a side note Robotis is in the process of releasing the new RX-28M separately to customers for other projects, and also stated they'll be focusing first on the other editions and leave the kit for last.

Pedro.
Hi Gort

We got some more information about this from Robotis. It is ocnfirmed that a kit around that price tag will indeed be released.

The 6k kit from what I understood is still a few months away. Unlike Bioloid where it's a "fluffy" kit where everything is documented and all is nicely packaged and ready to assemble, this 6k kit will be essentially a sum of parts and electronics.

From my understanding this means it clearly will be aimed at power users.

Quoting the information I got:
"[about a 6k kit] It was also commented by [...] who is willing to release fabrication information of all parts online.

ROBOTIS will only provide Actuators an Electronics which sums up to 6,000 USD
Timeline is not decided"


The email is not very specific but it hints at a few key points:
- "ROBOTIS will only provide Actuators an Electronics which sums up to 6,000 USD"
This probably means actuators + Robotis fabricated electronics (ie CM-730). Not sure if by this they mean they'll be including the FitPC2 as well as the webcam.


- "willing to release fabrication information of all parts online"
I also don't know what's the extent of this affirmation but it may hint that some of the parts (don't know which) may not be included in the price but designs for fabricating them will be available.

- I'm also not sure how it'll work in terms of warranty and support. It'll probably be limited and it'll likely be also a differentiating feature between the 3 editions now known.

In any case it looks like it will be an expert's or hacker's kit which is very cool and very exciting.

I wouldn't be surprised if Robotis is still not 100% clear how to got about all the details in this kit.
They take their time to think things over, listen a lot from distributors and take a long time for testing before releasing.

As a side note Robotis is in the process of releasing the new RX-28M separately to customers for other projects, and also stated they'll be focusing first on the other editions and leave the kit for last.

Pedro.
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Post by i-Bot » Mon May 16, 2011 11:52 am

Post by i-Bot
Mon May 16, 2011 11:52 am

(hint.. 5 off is 5 * more valuable research and a robocup team too)


Sorry that was a bit obscure. :roll:
Purchasing larger ticket items in an academic institutions, public sector generally and many large corporates is a challenge. If an item is below a threshold, then you are expected to pay from existing department budgets. However if you get the price higher there are often special funds quite generously available if you have a good justification. So it is often better to ask for more units (even whole units to break as spares) to acquire the special funding and protect the existing budgets.
(hint.. 5 off is 5 * more valuable research and a robocup team too)


Sorry that was a bit obscure. :roll:
Purchasing larger ticket items in an academic institutions, public sector generally and many large corporates is a challenge. If an item is below a threshold, then you are expected to pay from existing department budgets. However if you get the price higher there are often special funds quite generously available if you have a good justification. So it is often better to ask for more units (even whole units to break as spares) to acquire the special funding and protect the existing budgets.
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Post by i-Bot » Mon May 16, 2011 1:40 pm

Post by i-Bot
Mon May 16, 2011 1:40 pm

Thx. Pedro. That does seem more consistent and more attractive price for a partial kit. We expected the MX28 to be between $200 and $300 each, add the CM730 and its sub boards and you are getting close.
I expect no brackets, but hope they include the servo horns, cables, etc

It would also be sensible if the rather complex and specific metalwork around the CM730 and FitPC were included. This would reduce the problems and risk of damage to CM730 and FitPC
Thx. Pedro. That does seem more consistent and more attractive price for a partial kit. We expected the MX28 to be between $200 and $300 each, add the CM730 and its sub boards and you are getting close.
I expect no brackets, but hope they include the servo horns, cables, etc

It would also be sensible if the rather complex and specific metalwork around the CM730 and FitPC were included. This would reduce the problems and risk of damage to CM730 and FitPC
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Bought ?

Post by UncleBob » Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:05 am

Post by UncleBob
Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:05 am

I just wondering if any one bought one (non institution) and played around ? Any initial thoughts ?
I just wondering if any one bought one (non institution) and played around ? Any initial thoughts ?
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Post by PedroR » Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:45 pm

Post by PedroR
Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:45 pm

Hi UncleBob

We'll receive the first units of DARwIn-Op on July 25th.

We'll get one for ourselves and will certainly publish our review. (which should only happen in early August due to the timescale of internal projects that are going on at the moment).

We'll also be getting some additional units for customers who've already reserved it although I'm sure if they're regularly active on our forum.

With regards to the Editions - Academic or Deluxe - the restrictions of the "academic" edition policy iare not as strict as they are with Nao for example.
Customers who have enough knowledge to perform self maintenance may have access to the less expensive Academic Edition.
It is assumed that "customers who can do self maintenance" don't need the Extended 2 year Warranty and are able to service the Robot themselves; a 1 year standard warranty is still included against manufacturing defects.

I believe (my personal opinion here) that due to the added complexity of DARwIn compared to other Robotis products (ie Bioloid) Robotis chooses to promote the Deluxe Edition to ensure the successful introduction of the Robot in the market because it includes unlimited support from the distributor for 2 years.

Having said this, customers who have enough expertise to perform self maintenance on the Robot can choose to purchase the edition that suits them better. In this case please contact us to check and purchase the edition that you would need/prefer.

We will post our review about DARwIn as soon as we receive on ourselves.
Limor has already tested and reviewed a DARwIn during Innorobo although, if I recall correctly, we were not supposed to publish much about it at the time.

Regards
Pedro
Hi UncleBob

We'll receive the first units of DARwIn-Op on July 25th.

We'll get one for ourselves and will certainly publish our review. (which should only happen in early August due to the timescale of internal projects that are going on at the moment).

We'll also be getting some additional units for customers who've already reserved it although I'm sure if they're regularly active on our forum.

With regards to the Editions - Academic or Deluxe - the restrictions of the "academic" edition policy iare not as strict as they are with Nao for example.
Customers who have enough knowledge to perform self maintenance may have access to the less expensive Academic Edition.
It is assumed that "customers who can do self maintenance" don't need the Extended 2 year Warranty and are able to service the Robot themselves; a 1 year standard warranty is still included against manufacturing defects.

I believe (my personal opinion here) that due to the added complexity of DARwIn compared to other Robotis products (ie Bioloid) Robotis chooses to promote the Deluxe Edition to ensure the successful introduction of the Robot in the market because it includes unlimited support from the distributor for 2 years.

Having said this, customers who have enough expertise to perform self maintenance on the Robot can choose to purchase the edition that suits them better. In this case please contact us to check and purchase the edition that you would need/prefer.

We will post our review about DARwIn as soon as we receive on ourselves.
Limor has already tested and reviewed a DARwIn during Innorobo although, if I recall correctly, we were not supposed to publish much about it at the time.

Regards
Pedro
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Post by i-Bot » Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:07 pm

Post by i-Bot
Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:07 pm

Robotis have done great work with their DARwin framework, but I guess the UPenn at Robocup were using their own code, which includes stuff like ZMP and mapping.

I am not sure if the UPenn software already released on sourceforge is their 2009 or 2010 version. Do you know if they will release their 2011 software ?

I would not want this to compromise the work that Robotis has done to make a base reliable distribution for DARwin OP, but it is good to have access to a range of software options from standard to cup winning 8)
Robotis have done great work with their DARwin framework, but I guess the UPenn at Robocup were using their own code, which includes stuff like ZMP and mapping.

I am not sure if the UPenn software already released on sourceforge is their 2009 or 2010 version. Do you know if they will release their 2011 software ?

I would not want this to compromise the work that Robotis has done to make a base reliable distribution for DARwin OP, but it is good to have access to a range of software options from standard to cup winning 8)
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