KHR-1HV Set-up frustration

KHR-1, KHR-2HV, KHR-3HV, ICS servos, RCB controllers and other Kondo products
7 postsPage 1 of 1
7 postsPage 1 of 1

KHR-1HV Set-up frustration

Post by plingboot » Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:32 pm

Post by plingboot
Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:32 pm

Hi again,

Juts had a particularly frustrating afternoon trying to get my KHR-1HV set-up again.

The original battery pack no longer holds a charge, so i'm using a desktop power supply from maplin.

First problem was H2H, it refused to recognise the RCB-3J when connected to my Thinkpad running XP. The ONLY way i could get it working was to run XP through parallels on my MacPro.

So H2H was now seeing my RCB-3J and i can get live servo feedback.

Next thing i tried to do was install the basic motions which came on the supplied CD.

The bottom line was that some work (bow, dance/wave arms), but most end up with the robot falling over or at best toppling around and almost falling over.

The 'get up from on his back' motion ends in a crouch from which he launches backwards and the forward steps look like he's having a fit - nothing like the various movies i've seen of the KHR-1HV.

I then tried to look at resetting the 'set-up' positon (the one with arms out and legs bent and then the basic home(?) position - standing up straight.

I only have a Japanese version of the assembly manual, so to be honest i'm prodding around at buttons and not really understanding what i should be doing.

I anyone would be kind enough to:

1. provide some info/english resources to help me set the robot up with it's two basic positions - simple steps maybe?
2. help/supply me with a basic set of motions which are known to work
3. possibly help with my other thread - getting the gyros working - i'd be a happy chap.

I don't expect riverdance, but i'd like to be able to use the remote to have him walk around and throw a few moves without always ending up on his back.

At the moment i'm back at the point i was a couple of years back, where i put him on a shelf in frustration. :(
Hi again,

Juts had a particularly frustrating afternoon trying to get my KHR-1HV set-up again.

The original battery pack no longer holds a charge, so i'm using a desktop power supply from maplin.

First problem was H2H, it refused to recognise the RCB-3J when connected to my Thinkpad running XP. The ONLY way i could get it working was to run XP through parallels on my MacPro.

So H2H was now seeing my RCB-3J and i can get live servo feedback.

Next thing i tried to do was install the basic motions which came on the supplied CD.

The bottom line was that some work (bow, dance/wave arms), but most end up with the robot falling over or at best toppling around and almost falling over.

The 'get up from on his back' motion ends in a crouch from which he launches backwards and the forward steps look like he's having a fit - nothing like the various movies i've seen of the KHR-1HV.

I then tried to look at resetting the 'set-up' positon (the one with arms out and legs bent and then the basic home(?) position - standing up straight.

I only have a Japanese version of the assembly manual, so to be honest i'm prodding around at buttons and not really understanding what i should be doing.

I anyone would be kind enough to:

1. provide some info/english resources to help me set the robot up with it's two basic positions - simple steps maybe?
2. help/supply me with a basic set of motions which are known to work
3. possibly help with my other thread - getting the gyros working - i'd be a happy chap.

I don't expect riverdance, but i'd like to be able to use the remote to have him walk around and throw a few moves without always ending up on his back.

At the moment i'm back at the point i was a couple of years back, where i put him on a shelf in frustration. :(
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Post by plingboot » Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:44 pm

Post by plingboot
Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:44 pm

wow, i thought i might get at least 1 reply... am i the only person who owns a KHR-1HV? :( :roll:

anyway, spent an age hunting the internet for more information and finally stumbled across a proper english translation of the assembly manual.

this pointed out a few things i'd missed in my original build/software set-up. This included setting the servos to ICS mode - which is probably a fundamental issue.

i also spent time rechecking all the servo connections and original 'zero' position - which turned out to be absolutely fine as they were.

not had chance to go any further yet, but will post again with further progress.

i had been considering a KHR-3HV for the collection, but less than convinced that it'd be a worthwhile purchase now as there seems to be a total dearth of english language help/tech support - i've yet to spot any motion files for the 3HV with the additional hip servos and the 1HV seems to have totally dropped of the radar. :(
wow, i thought i might get at least 1 reply... am i the only person who owns a KHR-1HV? :( :roll:

anyway, spent an age hunting the internet for more information and finally stumbled across a proper english translation of the assembly manual.

this pointed out a few things i'd missed in my original build/software set-up. This included setting the servos to ICS mode - which is probably a fundamental issue.

i also spent time rechecking all the servo connections and original 'zero' position - which turned out to be absolutely fine as they were.

not had chance to go any further yet, but will post again with further progress.

i had been considering a KHR-3HV for the collection, but less than convinced that it'd be a worthwhile purchase now as there seems to be a total dearth of english language help/tech support - i've yet to spot any motion files for the 3HV with the additional hip servos and the 1HV seems to have totally dropped of the radar. :(
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Post by chrisvo » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:15 pm

Post by chrisvo
Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:15 pm

Sorry I've been on vacation.

As for a 3HV, it is true that Kondo does not provide motion files for the additional hip rotation but then again the new Heart2Heart4 software for the 3HV is easier to use. I have made an English translated version of it and posted on this forum.

For the 1HV, gyro feedback setup is called "mixing". You can define mixing globally, but you can also modify the mixing values in real time inside your motions using the "MIX" objects in your motions. The idea is simple: the robot reads the sensor value, subtracts a reference (zero value), and then for each servo multiplies that result by a mixing constant you specify for each servo. The manual for Heart 2 Heart 3 should have some example values that work OK (yes, it's in Japanese -- I don't know Japanese either but I just look at the pictures and screenshots to figure out what's going on)


English Docs for the KHR-1HV:
http://www.ixs.co.jp/en/products/robot/ ... Manual.pdf
http://www.ixs.co.jp/en/products/robot/ ... Manual.pdf
http://www.ixs.co.jp/en/products/robot/ ... sensor.pdf

Software (English)
http://www.ixs.co.jp/en/products/robot/ ... e/HTHJ.exe
http://www.ixs.co.jp/en/products/robot/ ... e/HTH3.exe
Sorry I've been on vacation.

As for a 3HV, it is true that Kondo does not provide motion files for the additional hip rotation but then again the new Heart2Heart4 software for the 3HV is easier to use. I have made an English translated version of it and posted on this forum.

For the 1HV, gyro feedback setup is called "mixing". You can define mixing globally, but you can also modify the mixing values in real time inside your motions using the "MIX" objects in your motions. The idea is simple: the robot reads the sensor value, subtracts a reference (zero value), and then for each servo multiplies that result by a mixing constant you specify for each servo. The manual for Heart 2 Heart 3 should have some example values that work OK (yes, it's in Japanese -- I don't know Japanese either but I just look at the pictures and screenshots to figure out what's going on)


English Docs for the KHR-1HV:
http://www.ixs.co.jp/en/products/robot/ ... Manual.pdf
http://www.ixs.co.jp/en/products/robot/ ... Manual.pdf
http://www.ixs.co.jp/en/products/robot/ ... sensor.pdf

Software (English)
http://www.ixs.co.jp/en/products/robot/ ... e/HTHJ.exe
http://www.ixs.co.jp/en/products/robot/ ... e/HTH3.exe
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Post by plingboot » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:32 am

Post by plingboot
Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:32 am

chrisvo - thanks for the reply. had a look at a couple of your youtube clips - your 'bot has a very slick walk motion.

Is there a 'best practice/logical stepped approach' for developing a walk motion?

I've found the one included with my 1HV to be so poor it's almost comical, so i really need to develop my own version and my previous attempts have been less than successful.
chrisvo - thanks for the reply. had a look at a couple of your youtube clips - your 'bot has a very slick walk motion.

Is there a 'best practice/logical stepped approach' for developing a walk motion?

I've found the one included with my 1HV to be so poor it's almost comical, so i really need to develop my own version and my previous attempts have been less than successful.
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Post by chrisvo » Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:56 am

Post by chrisvo
Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:56 am

There is a bit of both art and engineering to the motions, it takes time to get a "feel" for it but at the same time there are some technical things:

For example, the included walking motions with the 1HV are supposed to work if you have properly constructed the robot (exactly according to instructions) and the trim is correct (exactly according to instructions). Of course, I admit I've built some of my 1HV's incorrectly in the past and had to do a lot of work on them.

When you build the robot in the first place, you are supposed to plug all the servos in and turn them on and set them to 0 position in Heart2Heart, and then when you put all the horns on you are supposed to align them perfectly with the dimple on the servo shaft. With all the servos at 0 position, the robot will not stand up; it has it's knees bent 45 or so degrees and arms out - there's a picture somewhere in the manual. Then when you set trim for home position, the three joints are to be perfectly aligned with each other, and 90 degrees to the ground.

All that is very important it seems especially with the 1HV. It seems that improper construction AND trim makes for motions that are completely off and difficult to reproduce the same results as you see in the product demo videos. Note however, in this regard the KHR-3HV is a lot easier because it's significantly more rigid (the gears are 100% metal and have no physical extents / angle limits), there is a simpler and more durable construction, and it doesn't seem to matter whether you've perfectly mounted the servo - as long as the trim is right the included motions will work. Plus the 3HV's HTH4 software is easier.

Anyway, as far as "best practice" is concerned - it depends on your style. For example, HeartToHeart (both 3 and 4) has the ability to "teach" which means you can pose the robot and it will capture the position you are holding the servos in. You can come up with a rough motion really fast this way and then worry about tweaking the numbers and smoothing things out later. However, it can be frustrating because of the mechanical tolerances in the 1HV (this is again an area where the 3HV shines over the 1HV). Here's some tips I've learned that help with traditional way (doing all the motions by hand):
  • Ignore the slider bars for setting servo positions in the GUI except for rough adjustments. Instead, it's really important to get a feel for manual entry of the numbers. When you are tweaking motions, use standard increments like 5 ticks or so, it helps get a better feel for it.
  • Don't forget that with a humanoid robot, dynamic balance is important, not just static balance. That means that you will have to manage and control your momentum. A good rule of thumb to help manage the momentum is to avoid jerky movement of the center of mass of the robot.
  • When making motions from scratch, lay out the key frames first on paper before trying to develop the motion in the software. Once you've laid out the basic keyframes (poses) and got it programmed into the software, it's easy to tweak and add more poses inbetween to smooth things out.
  • When you are working on motions that involve single-leg support (like kicking) be careful not to burn out your servos - while the 1HV is strong enough to stand on one leg it's not strong enough to hold that forever. Just check the temperature and if it seems too warm just turn the robot off and let it cool off.
  • Gyro will only help in a minor way - don't rely too much on them. I find them great for calming down any wobbles between motions, but it's really hard to get them to help with your walking motion unless you've got a good feel for the mechanics of walking vs. what your sensors will read while walking.


Again, the method and workflow depends on what works best for you. I prefer developing motions one pose at a time, starting from home position and building it sequentially. Some other people prefer to get a rough motion working first, then tweak it until it works. (the "teach" function is great for that).
There is a bit of both art and engineering to the motions, it takes time to get a "feel" for it but at the same time there are some technical things:

For example, the included walking motions with the 1HV are supposed to work if you have properly constructed the robot (exactly according to instructions) and the trim is correct (exactly according to instructions). Of course, I admit I've built some of my 1HV's incorrectly in the past and had to do a lot of work on them.

When you build the robot in the first place, you are supposed to plug all the servos in and turn them on and set them to 0 position in Heart2Heart, and then when you put all the horns on you are supposed to align them perfectly with the dimple on the servo shaft. With all the servos at 0 position, the robot will not stand up; it has it's knees bent 45 or so degrees and arms out - there's a picture somewhere in the manual. Then when you set trim for home position, the three joints are to be perfectly aligned with each other, and 90 degrees to the ground.

All that is very important it seems especially with the 1HV. It seems that improper construction AND trim makes for motions that are completely off and difficult to reproduce the same results as you see in the product demo videos. Note however, in this regard the KHR-3HV is a lot easier because it's significantly more rigid (the gears are 100% metal and have no physical extents / angle limits), there is a simpler and more durable construction, and it doesn't seem to matter whether you've perfectly mounted the servo - as long as the trim is right the included motions will work. Plus the 3HV's HTH4 software is easier.

Anyway, as far as "best practice" is concerned - it depends on your style. For example, HeartToHeart (both 3 and 4) has the ability to "teach" which means you can pose the robot and it will capture the position you are holding the servos in. You can come up with a rough motion really fast this way and then worry about tweaking the numbers and smoothing things out later. However, it can be frustrating because of the mechanical tolerances in the 1HV (this is again an area where the 3HV shines over the 1HV). Here's some tips I've learned that help with traditional way (doing all the motions by hand):
  • Ignore the slider bars for setting servo positions in the GUI except for rough adjustments. Instead, it's really important to get a feel for manual entry of the numbers. When you are tweaking motions, use standard increments like 5 ticks or so, it helps get a better feel for it.
  • Don't forget that with a humanoid robot, dynamic balance is important, not just static balance. That means that you will have to manage and control your momentum. A good rule of thumb to help manage the momentum is to avoid jerky movement of the center of mass of the robot.
  • When making motions from scratch, lay out the key frames first on paper before trying to develop the motion in the software. Once you've laid out the basic keyframes (poses) and got it programmed into the software, it's easy to tweak and add more poses inbetween to smooth things out.
  • When you are working on motions that involve single-leg support (like kicking) be careful not to burn out your servos - while the 1HV is strong enough to stand on one leg it's not strong enough to hold that forever. Just check the temperature and if it seems too warm just turn the robot off and let it cool off.
  • Gyro will only help in a minor way - don't rely too much on them. I find them great for calming down any wobbles between motions, but it's really hard to get them to help with your walking motion unless you've got a good feel for the mechanics of walking vs. what your sensors will read while walking.


Again, the method and workflow depends on what works best for you. I prefer developing motions one pose at a time, starting from home position and building it sequentially. Some other people prefer to get a rough motion working first, then tweak it until it works. (the "teach" function is great for that).
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Post by plingboot » Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:43 am

Post by plingboot
Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:43 am

thanks for the info.

as mentioned above, i've been back to basics with my 1HV since i got my hands on an english version of the assembly manual.

i've re-zero'd all servos, double checked them and re-set my trim position.

i'm hoping to get time to try the basic motions again later this week and then look at making a few of my own.

My original workflow was 'visual' - i wanted to copy THIS motion so took the movie apart and tried to recreate it as a a number of logical keyframes - not huge success at the time though.

Here's where i'd really like to be, i think THESE motions (on a 2HV) are superb and would like to be able to get close to this kind of thing with my 1HV.
thanks for the info.

as mentioned above, i've been back to basics with my 1HV since i got my hands on an english version of the assembly manual.

i've re-zero'd all servos, double checked them and re-set my trim position.

i'm hoping to get time to try the basic motions again later this week and then look at making a few of my own.

My original workflow was 'visual' - i wanted to copy THIS motion so took the movie apart and tried to recreate it as a a number of logical keyframes - not huge success at the time though.

Here's where i'd really like to be, i think THESE motions (on a 2HV) are superb and would like to be able to get close to this kind of thing with my 1HV.
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Post by chrisvo » Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:11 pm

Post by chrisvo
Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:11 pm

HTH3 has a conversion function which lets you apply broad changes to an entire motion. For example, if you made a "right turn" you can mirror it and create a "left turn" automatically by just reversing some of the poses using the conversion. You can do many more things with it, but one of the main uses is to convert 2HV motions for use with the 1HV.

The motions from that video (and many more) were posted somewhere online (crabfu.com?) and you should see if you can find that and also the conversion procedure. I forget where I found those things....

The motions you have shown that you want to try are pretty complex and if you are not already good with motions it may take some time...
HTH3 has a conversion function which lets you apply broad changes to an entire motion. For example, if you made a "right turn" you can mirror it and create a "left turn" automatically by just reversing some of the poses using the conversion. You can do many more things with it, but one of the main uses is to convert 2HV motions for use with the 1HV.

The motions from that video (and many more) were posted somewhere online (crabfu.com?) and you should see if you can find that and also the conversion procedure. I forget where I found those things....

The motions you have shown that you want to try are pretty complex and if you are not already good with motions it may take some time...
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