MELISSA

KHR-1, KHR-2HV, KHR-3HV, ICS servos, RCB controllers and other Kondo products
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MELISSA

Post by Ray » Sat Nov 22, 2008 4:24 am

Post by Ray
Sat Nov 22, 2008 4:24 am

:shock: It really a strong robot available and purchasable in japan


http://www.rakuten.ne.jp/gold/grass-roa ... issa.1.jpg

http://www.rakuten.ne.jp/gold/grass-roa ... elissa.htm

Anyway, it seem to be a set of kits to assemble an strong robot with many degree of freedom possible.

http://www.rakuten.ne.jp/gold/grass-roa ... S.KUMI.wmv
:shock: It really a strong robot available and purchasable in japan


http://www.rakuten.ne.jp/gold/grass-roa ... issa.1.jpg

http://www.rakuten.ne.jp/gold/grass-roa ... elissa.htm

Anyway, it seem to be a set of kits to assemble an strong robot with many degree of freedom possible.

http://www.rakuten.ne.jp/gold/grass-roa ... S.KUMI.wmv
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Post by RobotServicesGroup » Sat Nov 22, 2008 4:59 pm

Post by RobotServicesGroup
Sat Nov 22, 2008 4:59 pm

If the Google translation of their webpage is correct, then this robot has 20 Degrees of Freedom with an aluminum frame. It seems strange that they are selling the robot in parts, rather than a complete kit. If our understanding is correct you have to buy the Body Parts, Leg Parts, and Arm Parts separately for a total of 62,000 Yen, or about $620. This apparently does not include any servos or the control board. So if you add in the cost of 20 servos and an RCB, this robot is going to be very expensive. We didn't see any mention of software, or remote control options.

We like the extra servos in the arms, which give great flexibility. It is interesting that they went for a single servo in the torso, rather than two servos at the hips.

In any case, this robot looks promising. The motions were fluid and human-like, but the cost may be out of reach for most people.
If the Google translation of their webpage is correct, then this robot has 20 Degrees of Freedom with an aluminum frame. It seems strange that they are selling the robot in parts, rather than a complete kit. If our understanding is correct you have to buy the Body Parts, Leg Parts, and Arm Parts separately for a total of 62,000 Yen, or about $620. This apparently does not include any servos or the control board. So if you add in the cost of 20 servos and an RCB, this robot is going to be very expensive. We didn't see any mention of software, or remote control options.

We like the extra servos in the arms, which give great flexibility. It is interesting that they went for a single servo in the torso, rather than two servos at the hips.

In any case, this robot looks promising. The motions were fluid and human-like, but the cost may be out of reach for most people.
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Post by limor » Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:11 pm

Post by limor
Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:11 pm

Very interesting design.
nothing particularly new but judging by the stable walk, it comes from experienced robo-one engineers. I wonder if robots-dreams will provide more information about this.
Very interesting design.
nothing particularly new but judging by the stable walk, it comes from experienced robo-one engineers. I wonder if robots-dreams will provide more information about this.
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Post by Meltdown » Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:22 am

Post by Meltdown
Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:22 am

It seems to me that this is no new type of robot.
It's more like a pure mechanical upgrade for KHR type robots like the R-blue was for the KHR1.
More a metal skeleton to fit the new Kondo serial 4024, 4013 and 4014 servo range.
That's why there is no new software or controller needed.
Assuming the 40xx Kondo servos are really serial? Limor?

Don't be surprised if this is a prelude of Kondo's new model.
This could well be the way Kondo has to go with a new model if they want to make use of their new serial interface and the serial servos.

Lets take a look at a possible KHR3 standard retail version.
The serial interface is much cheaper than a RCB3, check.
Using the new lower powered serial servo's like the 4024, check
Combine this with the new metal skeleton, maybe a lighter version, you'll end up with a KHR3 which cost will be between a KHR2-HV and a KHR-1HV.
The skeleton will also be ready to upgrade with the much more powerful 4013 or 4014 servos as well.
Just rambling :wink:
It seems to me that this is no new type of robot.
It's more like a pure mechanical upgrade for KHR type robots like the R-blue was for the KHR1.
More a metal skeleton to fit the new Kondo serial 4024, 4013 and 4014 servo range.
That's why there is no new software or controller needed.
Assuming the 40xx Kondo servos are really serial? Limor?

Don't be surprised if this is a prelude of Kondo's new model.
This could well be the way Kondo has to go with a new model if they want to make use of their new serial interface and the serial servos.

Lets take a look at a possible KHR3 standard retail version.
The serial interface is much cheaper than a RCB3, check.
Using the new lower powered serial servo's like the 4024, check
Combine this with the new metal skeleton, maybe a lighter version, you'll end up with a KHR3 which cost will be between a KHR2-HV and a KHR-1HV.
The skeleton will also be ready to upgrade with the much more powerful 4013 or 4014 servos as well.
Just rambling :wink:
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Post by Ray » Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:14 am

Post by Ray
Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:14 am

We like the extra servos in the arms, which give great flexibility. It is interesting that they went for a single servo in the torso, rather than two servos at the hips.


It is in fact a kit very similar to R-blue, in the hip position, you can simply rotate the two servos, then it become pitch axis of the leg (rotation) :)
so, it can becomes 22 degree of fredom easily like (R-blue)

yes, Kondo has its new board "KCB-1" which can access all the servos using serial link, moreover, C language can be used. :)
It is a pity that no english version available and there is no such product available at RoboSavvy :cry: Limor ?
We like the extra servos in the arms, which give great flexibility. It is interesting that they went for a single servo in the torso, rather than two servos at the hips.


It is in fact a kit very similar to R-blue, in the hip position, you can simply rotate the two servos, then it become pitch axis of the leg (rotation) :)
so, it can becomes 22 degree of fredom easily like (R-blue)

yes, Kondo has its new board "KCB-1" which can access all the servos using serial link, moreover, C language can be used. :)
It is a pity that no english version available and there is no such product available at RoboSavvy :cry: Limor ?
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Post by limor » Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:49 pm

Post by limor
Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:49 pm

Meltdown wrote:It seems to me that this is no new type of robot.
It's more like a pure mechanical upgrade for KHR type robots like the R-blue was for the KHR1.
More a metal skeleton to fit the new Kondo serial 4024, 4013 and 4014 servo range.
That's why there is no new software or controller needed.
Assuming the 40xx Kondo servos are really serial? Limor?

Don't be surprised if this is a prelude of Kondo's new model.
This could well be the way Kondo has to go with a new model if they want to make use of their new serial interface and the serial servos.

Lets take a look at a possible KHR3 standard retail version.
The serial interface is much cheaper than a RCB3, check.
Using the new lower powered serial servo's like the 4024, check
Combine this with the new metal skeleton, maybe a lighter version, you'll end up with a KHR3 which cost will be between a KHR2-HV and a KHR-1HV.
The skeleton will also be ready to upgrade with the much more powerful 4013 or 4014 servos as well.
Just rambling :wink:


The servos are supposed to be serial and daisy-chain like the Robotis/Robobuilder but i haven't seen any documentation about this. Given the similarity between the hitec and kondo servos in the past regarding the short PWM position-response protocol, maybe they are sharing some firmware code so maybe the documentation about the daisy-chain setup for hitec servos applies to Kondo. the intricate relationships between servo manufacturers is beyond mortal knowledge.

Why would Kondo choose to launch a new kit via Rakuten web site? maybe to test the water and see if there's an audience?
Meltdown wrote:It seems to me that this is no new type of robot.
It's more like a pure mechanical upgrade for KHR type robots like the R-blue was for the KHR1.
More a metal skeleton to fit the new Kondo serial 4024, 4013 and 4014 servo range.
That's why there is no new software or controller needed.
Assuming the 40xx Kondo servos are really serial? Limor?

Don't be surprised if this is a prelude of Kondo's new model.
This could well be the way Kondo has to go with a new model if they want to make use of their new serial interface and the serial servos.

Lets take a look at a possible KHR3 standard retail version.
The serial interface is much cheaper than a RCB3, check.
Using the new lower powered serial servo's like the 4024, check
Combine this with the new metal skeleton, maybe a lighter version, you'll end up with a KHR3 which cost will be between a KHR2-HV and a KHR-1HV.
The skeleton will also be ready to upgrade with the much more powerful 4013 or 4014 servos as well.
Just rambling :wink:


The servos are supposed to be serial and daisy-chain like the Robotis/Robobuilder but i haven't seen any documentation about this. Given the similarity between the hitec and kondo servos in the past regarding the short PWM position-response protocol, maybe they are sharing some firmware code so maybe the documentation about the daisy-chain setup for hitec servos applies to Kondo. the intricate relationships between servo manufacturers is beyond mortal knowledge.

Why would Kondo choose to launch a new kit via Rakuten web site? maybe to test the water and see if there's an audience?
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Post by tempusmaster » Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:12 pm

Post by tempusmaster
Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:12 pm

Let me clarify things a bit.

Melissa was developed by CRAFT HOUSE located in Fukuoka with input and guidance from a number of well known ROBO-ONE competitors and builders including Yoshimura-san and Yumae-san. This is the same group responsible for the Blazer laser tag system.

It's designed as a kit without the controller or servos because they want to encourage builders to add their own imagination and design, as you would expect from a company named Craft House. There are probably economic/business reasons as well since the projected sales volumes are low while stocking and reselling high performance servos and controllers wouldn't make good business sense.

While it is possible that Kondo may want to OEM the kit and resell it under their own brand at some point, I doubt that will happen in the near future.

In terms of serial operation, both the Kondo KRS-4013 and KRS-4014 servos fully implement ICS2.0 and the command reference is available online (http://www.kondo-robot.com/pdf/ICS20CommandRef2.pdf). I am not aware of an English version of this document, though it could exist.
Let me clarify things a bit.

Melissa was developed by CRAFT HOUSE located in Fukuoka with input and guidance from a number of well known ROBO-ONE competitors and builders including Yoshimura-san and Yumae-san. This is the same group responsible for the Blazer laser tag system.

It's designed as a kit without the controller or servos because they want to encourage builders to add their own imagination and design, as you would expect from a company named Craft House. There are probably economic/business reasons as well since the projected sales volumes are low while stocking and reselling high performance servos and controllers wouldn't make good business sense.

While it is possible that Kondo may want to OEM the kit and resell it under their own brand at some point, I doubt that will happen in the near future.

In terms of serial operation, both the Kondo KRS-4013 and KRS-4014 servos fully implement ICS2.0 and the command reference is available online (http://www.kondo-robot.com/pdf/ICS20CommandRef2.pdf). I am not aware of an English version of this document, though it could exist.
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Post by Meltdown » Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:52 pm

Post by Meltdown
Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:52 pm

My statement about Melissa being Kondos new robot was meant tongue in cheek.
But....... i'll bet Kondos next robot will be a serial controlled one.

It seems that the 40xx servos also work with the RCB3 controller which isn't a serial controller.
Does that mean that the servos work with both serial (KCB-1) and pwm (RCB3) controllers?
My statement about Melissa being Kondos new robot was meant tongue in cheek.
But....... i'll bet Kondos next robot will be a serial controlled one.

It seems that the 40xx servos also work with the RCB3 controller which isn't a serial controller.
Does that mean that the servos work with both serial (KCB-1) and pwm (RCB3) controllers?
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Post by tempusmaster » Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:02 am

Post by tempusmaster
Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:02 am

Meltdown wrote:My statement about Melissa being Kondos new robot was meant tongue in cheek.


I assumed so, but others might not have.

But....... i'll bet Kondos next robot will be a serial controlled one.


Perhaps. While serial is extremely attractive to most users that are deep into the technology, Kondo's general customer base buys the robots for a multitude of other reasons most of which don't have much to do with serial.

It seems that the 40xx servos also work with the RCB3 controller which isn't a serial controller.
Does that mean that the servos work with both serial (KCB-1) and pwm (RCB3) controllers?


Yes, but only the KRS-4013 and KRS-4014 support full ICS2.0. I've seen some implementations of Kondo servos with the Futaba controller, and the opposite, but don't know all the details. The KRS-4024 is a slightly different animal.

Here's a fairly complete and useful comparision of Hitec, Kondo, Futaba, and Robotis serial implementations:

Serial servo comparision
Meltdown wrote:My statement about Melissa being Kondos new robot was meant tongue in cheek.


I assumed so, but others might not have.

But....... i'll bet Kondos next robot will be a serial controlled one.


Perhaps. While serial is extremely attractive to most users that are deep into the technology, Kondo's general customer base buys the robots for a multitude of other reasons most of which don't have much to do with serial.

It seems that the 40xx servos also work with the RCB3 controller which isn't a serial controller.
Does that mean that the servos work with both serial (KCB-1) and pwm (RCB3) controllers?


Yes, but only the KRS-4013 and KRS-4014 support full ICS2.0. I've seen some implementations of Kondo servos with the Futaba controller, and the opposite, but don't know all the details. The KRS-4024 is a slightly different animal.

Here's a fairly complete and useful comparision of Hitec, Kondo, Futaba, and Robotis serial implementations:

Serial servo comparision
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Post by Meltdown » Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:28 am

Post by Meltdown
Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:28 am

Thanks TM for the info.
Very informative.

I'm in the market to change all my servos to at least 30kg/cm ones.
I must decide whether i stay RCB3 or go serial.
I guess with the 40xx series servos you can go both ways.
Thanks TM for the info.
Very informative.

I'm in the market to change all my servos to at least 30kg/cm ones.
I must decide whether i stay RCB3 or go serial.
I guess with the 40xx series servos you can go both ways.
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Post by tempusmaster » Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:40 am

Post by tempusmaster
Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:40 am

Meltdown wrote:Thanks TM for the info.
Very informative.

I'm in the market to change all my servos to at least 30kg/cm ones.
I must decide whether i stay RCB3 or go serial.
I guess with the 40xx series servos you can go both ways.


Keep in mind that the 4013 and 4014 support serial and PWM. The 4024 is only PWM. Refer to this spec:

http://www.kondo-robot.com/pdf/KRS4000_scale.pdf

Also, the 4013 and 4014 have identical dimensions - the only apparent difference is the gearing.
Meltdown wrote:Thanks TM for the info.
Very informative.

I'm in the market to change all my servos to at least 30kg/cm ones.
I must decide whether i stay RCB3 or go serial.
I guess with the 40xx series servos you can go both ways.


Keep in mind that the 4013 and 4014 support serial and PWM. The 4024 is only PWM. Refer to this spec:

http://www.kondo-robot.com/pdf/KRS4000_scale.pdf

Also, the 4013 and 4014 have identical dimensions - the only apparent difference is the gearing.
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