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Newb

Post by Genocide » Fri Feb 25, 2005 10:33 am

Post by Genocide
Fri Feb 25, 2005 10:33 am

Hello everyone,
I found this website looking for KHR and R-blue i have been wanting to build a bi-ped for a long time and i hope that this site will help and aid me through th eropugh spots, i was thinking about buying a KHR but i would rather build from my own design. ? ANY known places where i can get their brackets or some simnilar?
Hello everyone,
I found this website looking for KHR and R-blue i have been wanting to build a bi-ped for a long time and i hope that this site will help and aid me through th eropugh spots, i was thinking about buying a KHR but i would rather build from my own design. ? ANY known places where i can get their brackets or some simnilar?
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Post by limor » Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:44 pm

Post by limor
Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:44 pm

Hello Genocide and welcome to the the forum!

I have been looking too for a ready-made 3D description file of the KHR-1 or for that matter any other Robo-One robots without much success. One site that i've bookmarked is : http://www.world-c.jp/robot/index.html.

Its not that i wanted to CNC my own parts or get them made at http://emachineshop.com. i'm happy with my KHR-1.
The reason is that I've started developing last year a physics simulator (check out http://ezphysics.org/Poor_Aibo.wmv) and i wanted to eventually teach my KHR-1 to do things in virtual reality. For that, i needed a Robo-One model that i can import into my simulator..

It seems like there are many of those models floating around the Robo-One community in Japan and Korea. They mostly use Autodesk Inventor as their CAD software. For example: http://www.geocities.jp/koichi_rbv , http://www.robo-one.com/2nd/entry_list_2.htm .

How would you fabricate the aluminium parts ?
Why specifically R-Blue (which i think is the predecessor of YDH..)?
Please share any findings of models of brackets, servos, or any other humanoid parts on this forum..

Image

cheers,

limor
8O
Hello Genocide and welcome to the the forum!

I have been looking too for a ready-made 3D description file of the KHR-1 or for that matter any other Robo-One robots without much success. One site that i've bookmarked is : http://www.world-c.jp/robot/index.html.

Its not that i wanted to CNC my own parts or get them made at http://emachineshop.com. i'm happy with my KHR-1.
The reason is that I've started developing last year a physics simulator (check out http://ezphysics.org/Poor_Aibo.wmv) and i wanted to eventually teach my KHR-1 to do things in virtual reality. For that, i needed a Robo-One model that i can import into my simulator..

It seems like there are many of those models floating around the Robo-One community in Japan and Korea. They mostly use Autodesk Inventor as their CAD software. For example: http://www.geocities.jp/koichi_rbv , http://www.robo-one.com/2nd/entry_list_2.htm .

How would you fabricate the aluminium parts ?
Why specifically R-Blue (which i think is the predecessor of YDH..)?
Please share any findings of models of brackets, servos, or any other humanoid parts on this forum..

Image

cheers,

limor
8O
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Parts

Post by Genocide » Sun Feb 27, 2005 8:04 pm

Post by Genocide
Sun Feb 27, 2005 8:04 pm

http://www.lynxmotion.com/Category.aspx?CategoryID=1 hope this helps any they even have a reverse joint biped looks good all frame parts are made from lexan and bolts. Genocide OUT.....
http://www.lynxmotion.com/Category.aspx?CategoryID=1 hope this helps any they even have a reverse joint biped looks good all frame parts are made from lexan and bolts. Genocide OUT.....
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Post by Meltdown » Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:50 am

Post by Meltdown
Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:50 am

If someone needs some special parts made ( cnc ) i can help them.
Getting the right material cheap is the biggest problem.
If someone needs some special parts made ( cnc ) i can help them.
Getting the right material cheap is the biggest problem.
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Post by Genocide » Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:52 pm

Post by Genocide
Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:52 pm

yeah that would be cool what all can you do with a CNC machine, and by the way i think that the emachine shop website could be good i would like to have things that have curves and bubbled out, i am tottally new to this stuff and i am waiting around on my KHR-1 with in the next 2 weeks or more :( where i am in Iraq i have a 10 day wait any other companys that have good deals on biped type robots with the same quality.
yeah that would be cool what all can you do with a CNC machine, and by the way i think that the emachine shop website could be good i would like to have things that have curves and bubbled out, i am tottally new to this stuff and i am waiting around on my KHR-1 with in the next 2 weeks or more :( where i am in Iraq i have a 10 day wait any other companys that have good deals on biped type robots with the same quality.
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Post by Guest » Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:19 pm

Post by Guest
Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:19 pm

It is interesting to note that we all want to do the same thing, but I should admit it is not easy: build a humanoid/walker robot by ourselves.

Building aluminimum parts is the most difficult part for me. I am skilled at programming and electronics but I consider building mechanical parts the biggest challenge of building any substantial robot.

In the KHR I appreciate the fine building of aluminium parts. However I miss the electronics parts: autonome processing and sensors. Perhaps the KHR has too much power to be controlled by a common microcontroller ? I don't think so. I brain for the KHR would be great and some sensor are really necessary.

Anyone interested in building a new humanoid from sratch ? Perhaps improving significantly the KHR-1 might be an interesting first step ?

I am interested.
It is interesting to note that we all want to do the same thing, but I should admit it is not easy: build a humanoid/walker robot by ourselves.

Building aluminimum parts is the most difficult part for me. I am skilled at programming and electronics but I consider building mechanical parts the biggest challenge of building any substantial robot.

In the KHR I appreciate the fine building of aluminium parts. However I miss the electronics parts: autonome processing and sensors. Perhaps the KHR has too much power to be controlled by a common microcontroller ? I don't think so. I brain for the KHR would be great and some sensor are really necessary.

Anyone interested in building a new humanoid from sratch ? Perhaps improving significantly the KHR-1 might be an interesting first step ?

I am interested.
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Post by limor » Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:46 am

Post by limor
Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:46 am

Anonymous wrote:It is interesting to note that we all want to do the same thing, but I should admit it is not easy: build a humanoid/walker robot by ourselves.

Building aluminimum parts is the most difficult part for me. I am skilled at programming and electronics but I consider building mechanical parts the biggest challenge of building any substantial robot.

In the KHR I appreciate the fine building of aluminium parts. However I miss the electronics parts: autonome processing and sensors. Perhaps the KHR has too much power to be controlled by a common microcontroller ? I don't think so. I brain for the KHR would be great and some sensor are really necessary.

Anyone interested in building a new humanoid from sratch ? Perhaps improving significantly the KHR-1 might be an interesting first step ?

I am interested.


:idea: Great idea!

Here's a braindump of steps towards implenting this project as i see them..

1) choose the servos to be used
i'm afraid a design is hard-coded with the type of servos used because they come in specific box sizes and shapes, torques etc. (hopefully there's going to be enough participation to make more then one walker design)
2) choose the controler board
there are many controler boards out there and the new ones with the ATmega CPU come with zillions of PWM outputs and loads of 10bit A2D inputs. or we can go for my favourite : Gumstix and its recent PWM addon board
3) design aluminum or lexan parts
this involves obviously a using 3D design (CAD) tool. the biggest challenge here is creating common parts. KHR-1 has an ingenious bracket (see the bottom of this page: More Brackets) that is reused in different parts of its body. the problem with having many parts is the fabrication cost. Lets say we manage to nail down 5 core generic parts. The price of emachineshop.com then goes down dramatically when ordering large numbers of the same item making this robot more affordable.

We could addopt a creative commons license which could attract the likes of SlashDot.com community and in turn allow prices to go down...
Anonymous wrote:It is interesting to note that we all want to do the same thing, but I should admit it is not easy: build a humanoid/walker robot by ourselves.

Building aluminimum parts is the most difficult part for me. I am skilled at programming and electronics but I consider building mechanical parts the biggest challenge of building any substantial robot.

In the KHR I appreciate the fine building of aluminium parts. However I miss the electronics parts: autonome processing and sensors. Perhaps the KHR has too much power to be controlled by a common microcontroller ? I don't think so. I brain for the KHR would be great and some sensor are really necessary.

Anyone interested in building a new humanoid from sratch ? Perhaps improving significantly the KHR-1 might be an interesting first step ?

I am interested.


:idea: Great idea!

Here's a braindump of steps towards implenting this project as i see them..

1) choose the servos to be used
i'm afraid a design is hard-coded with the type of servos used because they come in specific box sizes and shapes, torques etc. (hopefully there's going to be enough participation to make more then one walker design)
2) choose the controler board
there are many controler boards out there and the new ones with the ATmega CPU come with zillions of PWM outputs and loads of 10bit A2D inputs. or we can go for my favourite : Gumstix and its recent PWM addon board
3) design aluminum or lexan parts
this involves obviously a using 3D design (CAD) tool. the biggest challenge here is creating common parts. KHR-1 has an ingenious bracket (see the bottom of this page: More Brackets) that is reused in different parts of its body. the problem with having many parts is the fabrication cost. Lets say we manage to nail down 5 core generic parts. The price of emachineshop.com then goes down dramatically when ordering large numbers of the same item making this robot more affordable.

We could addopt a creative commons license which could attract the likes of SlashDot.com community and in turn allow prices to go down...
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Post by EC » Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:25 am

Post by EC
Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:25 am

I like the idea too. But I can't really help out much, due to my lack of money, experience, and education... :(

Perhaps I could offer moral support? :wink:
I like the idea too. But I can't really help out much, due to my lack of money, experience, and education... :(

Perhaps I could offer moral support? :wink:
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Post by limor » Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:18 pm

Post by limor
Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:18 pm

EC wrote:I like the idea too. But I can't really help out much, due to my lack of money, experience, and education... :(

Perhaps I could offer moral support? :wink:


Sure you can.

learn how to use a 3D design software and try to create humanoid designs..

There are many 3D design systems.
My favourite (not-free) system is 3D Studio (there's a free version of it too) but the one i'd recommend, which is one of the greatest opensource projects ever, ishttp://www.blender3d.com

have a look at some robot designs :
http://gallery.mcneel.com/?language=en&g=12
Image


Seems like the tool of choice for the robo-one crowd is Autodesk Inventor. on the robo-one site there are several links and i found this one which is a tutorial for building humanoid parts : http://www.world-c.jp/robot/inventor/inventor005.html

And here's another thing google digged out; someone from Italy did exactly what we are talking about:
http://www.jodinsky.com/index2.html
Image
EC wrote:I like the idea too. But I can't really help out much, due to my lack of money, experience, and education... :(

Perhaps I could offer moral support? :wink:


Sure you can.

learn how to use a 3D design software and try to create humanoid designs..

There are many 3D design systems.
My favourite (not-free) system is 3D Studio (there's a free version of it too) but the one i'd recommend, which is one of the greatest opensource projects ever, ishttp://www.blender3d.com

have a look at some robot designs :
http://gallery.mcneel.com/?language=en&g=12
Image


Seems like the tool of choice for the robo-one crowd is Autodesk Inventor. on the robo-one site there are several links and i found this one which is a tutorial for building humanoid parts : http://www.world-c.jp/robot/inventor/inventor005.html

And here's another thing google digged out; someone from Italy did exactly what we are talking about:
http://www.jodinsky.com/index2.html
Image
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Post by inaki » Wed Mar 02, 2005 2:09 pm

Post by inaki
Wed Mar 02, 2005 2:09 pm

My choice is aluminium parts. Lexan cannot be folded which limits the shape of parts. Of course there are tons of small parts that are not the aluminium parts themselves to allow articulation. The KHR-1 is the only decent robot I know that uses the hones in the motor as the only articulations in the robot.

As for the motors, really are a crucial part in any design: whether they have free hones, how many supports, how much torque, etc, etc. Not counting the so called 'smart' servos. The obvious election in Eruope/Amercias would be Futaba or Hitech. By the way Kondo servos are sold out of Japan ?

As for the brain. Wow!, the Gumstix is too much I think. I have used embedded XScale boards for a while but it seems a little overkill for a small robot I think. I would look more on the microcontroller side: perhaps PICs or AVR. The problem with these is lack of enough RAM memory. But in my experience many things can be done without too much RAM. The boards can be created inexpensive and are easier to interface. On the other hand Linux is not a suitable operating system for real time and control.

It would be interesting to know which products are easily available in each country.
By the way. Where is located each one of us ? I am in Spain.
My choice is aluminium parts. Lexan cannot be folded which limits the shape of parts. Of course there are tons of small parts that are not the aluminium parts themselves to allow articulation. The KHR-1 is the only decent robot I know that uses the hones in the motor as the only articulations in the robot.

As for the motors, really are a crucial part in any design: whether they have free hones, how many supports, how much torque, etc, etc. Not counting the so called 'smart' servos. The obvious election in Eruope/Amercias would be Futaba or Hitech. By the way Kondo servos are sold out of Japan ?

As for the brain. Wow!, the Gumstix is too much I think. I have used embedded XScale boards for a while but it seems a little overkill for a small robot I think. I would look more on the microcontroller side: perhaps PICs or AVR. The problem with these is lack of enough RAM memory. But in my experience many things can be done without too much RAM. The boards can be created inexpensive and are easier to interface. On the other hand Linux is not a suitable operating system for real time and control.

It would be interesting to know which products are easily available in each country.
By the way. Where is located each one of us ? I am in Spain.
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Post by EC » Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:46 am

Post by EC
Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:46 am

I am in America.

I'l take a look at those 3D design tolls limor, and hopefully learn how to use one. :wink:
I am in America.

I'l take a look at those 3D design tolls limor, and hopefully learn how to use one. :wink:
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Post by Meltdown » Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:04 am

Post by Meltdown
Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:04 am

I'm from Holland
I'm from Holland
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Post by limor » Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:40 am

Post by limor
Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:40 am

here's another link to a western built humanoid, using "C555 microcontroller and PicoBytes PicoPic servo controller" though i think the picture is of a gumstix board http://happyrobots.com/bing.htm
here's another link to a western built humanoid, using "C555 microcontroller and PicoBytes PicoPic servo controller" though i think the picture is of a gumstix board http://happyrobots.com/bing.htm
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Post by Genocide » Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:00 am

Post by Genocide
Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:00 am

OK here goes it so i have just got done ordering like 200 $$$ for aluminum brackets, lexan, screws mounts and stuff like that the thing is i need a board to run my bot moneys isnt really an obejct but i need some advice on gumstix and the type of software i could run the board i have now is a cheap B.O.E stamp 2 sx board from paralex no servo controllers built in or anything i need a board through some out in the air for me and oppions on them manily i need speed and muti function for things like GPS, wi-fi or blue tooth, camera and multi senors i would do the research but i am out on convoys everynight and worrying from getting myslef killed in iraq :) so please help ...lol
OK here goes it so i have just got done ordering like 200 $$$ for aluminum brackets, lexan, screws mounts and stuff like that the thing is i need a board to run my bot moneys isnt really an obejct but i need some advice on gumstix and the type of software i could run the board i have now is a cheap B.O.E stamp 2 sx board from paralex no servo controllers built in or anything i need a board through some out in the air for me and oppions on them manily i need speed and muti function for things like GPS, wi-fi or blue tooth, camera and multi senors i would do the research but i am out on convoys everynight and worrying from getting myslef killed in iraq :) so please help ...lol
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Post by inaki » Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:59 pm

Post by inaki
Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:59 pm

Gumstix uses a general purpose processor, the XScale by Intel. That one is an ARM compatible CPU, one of the so called 'System on Chip' processors, because the processor integrates a lot of peripherals. The good side of such a processor is that is is powerful enough to make a complete system. The bad side is that you must use a full fledged operating system to run it. That is to say, you cannot pretend to start this processor and start doing input/output to a digital pin for example, like you would do on a microcontroller. The Gumstix comes with a version of Linux. So it means everything you do must been done through this operating system. There are other operating system available in case you don't like Linux but then you should count on adapting the operating system to the Gumstix board which may be not a trivial task. This may be good or bad news for you, depending on your preferences and your ultimate goal.

For my taste sys on chips are somewhat overkill for domestic robots. Sys on chip processors may be interesting if you pretend to have a real computer on board rather than a controller board that is most suitable for microcontrollers.

Basic Stamps work very well as peripheral controllers. The problem with Basic Stamps is how to do many things at the same time. They are good for one or two tasks but no more. However you can add several Basic Stamps together to perform complex tasks. The best of BS is that are simple to program and have many peripherals already made for it.

For general purpose control I prefer PICs or AVRs. There are many microcontrollers out there, some of them very powerful, but having a common controller like a PIC or an AVR gives you more comfort when you have to do the real development: programing tools, libraries, thousand of available projects already made, documentation, ...
PICs and AVR are inexpensive for the power they give and you can use several on the same board.

For servos control the best choice is a separate controller that can be controller serially instead of relying on the processor direct control. A typical robot has 12 or more servos which is too much for some microcontrollers. Also note that microcontrollers share lines so if you reserve many pins for one task you lose lines for other tasks. There are dozens of them that you can adapt to your board of choice. For initial programming it is best to have a serial servo controller that you can plug to your PC.

There are GPS modules available for robots but the problem with these is accuracy. A GPS system does not give more than one meter accuracy in the best case which is of doubtful interest in a robot (not counting they do not work indoors).

There are many solutions for Bluetooth, one of the most interesting is the EB500 series made by A7. WiFi however is more expensive to implement. There are several WiFi solutions for robots based on the Prism PCMCIA board but this requires the apropriate interface which is not easy to implement. For a robot I believe Bluetooth is the right choice. It can reach 100 meters at 150Kbps which is more than adequate for most purposes.

Cameras for robots are usually analog. They are small and you don't need any special control for them other that using perhaps an arm to mount the camera in order to change the focus. There are literaly hundred of miniature cameras available that are usable for robots. Most of them require a RF decoder on the receiver side. As the camera does not interact with the brain on board you can chose it based on size, power requirements, color/B/W, etc.

As for sensors, there are thousand of them. The most obvious choice for starters are, for obstacle avoidance, infrared detectors, ultrasonic rangers and mechanical switches; for bipeds, accelometers and gyros; for general orientation, electronic compass and encoders. You can add many more depending on your robot needs: line followers, color detectors, pyro sensor, thermo sensors, etc. Some of them are inexpensive while others are very expensive.
Gumstix uses a general purpose processor, the XScale by Intel. That one is an ARM compatible CPU, one of the so called 'System on Chip' processors, because the processor integrates a lot of peripherals. The good side of such a processor is that is is powerful enough to make a complete system. The bad side is that you must use a full fledged operating system to run it. That is to say, you cannot pretend to start this processor and start doing input/output to a digital pin for example, like you would do on a microcontroller. The Gumstix comes with a version of Linux. So it means everything you do must been done through this operating system. There are other operating system available in case you don't like Linux but then you should count on adapting the operating system to the Gumstix board which may be not a trivial task. This may be good or bad news for you, depending on your preferences and your ultimate goal.

For my taste sys on chips are somewhat overkill for domestic robots. Sys on chip processors may be interesting if you pretend to have a real computer on board rather than a controller board that is most suitable for microcontrollers.

Basic Stamps work very well as peripheral controllers. The problem with Basic Stamps is how to do many things at the same time. They are good for one or two tasks but no more. However you can add several Basic Stamps together to perform complex tasks. The best of BS is that are simple to program and have many peripherals already made for it.

For general purpose control I prefer PICs or AVRs. There are many microcontrollers out there, some of them very powerful, but having a common controller like a PIC or an AVR gives you more comfort when you have to do the real development: programing tools, libraries, thousand of available projects already made, documentation, ...
PICs and AVR are inexpensive for the power they give and you can use several on the same board.

For servos control the best choice is a separate controller that can be controller serially instead of relying on the processor direct control. A typical robot has 12 or more servos which is too much for some microcontrollers. Also note that microcontrollers share lines so if you reserve many pins for one task you lose lines for other tasks. There are dozens of them that you can adapt to your board of choice. For initial programming it is best to have a serial servo controller that you can plug to your PC.

There are GPS modules available for robots but the problem with these is accuracy. A GPS system does not give more than one meter accuracy in the best case which is of doubtful interest in a robot (not counting they do not work indoors).

There are many solutions for Bluetooth, one of the most interesting is the EB500 series made by A7. WiFi however is more expensive to implement. There are several WiFi solutions for robots based on the Prism PCMCIA board but this requires the apropriate interface which is not easy to implement. For a robot I believe Bluetooth is the right choice. It can reach 100 meters at 150Kbps which is more than adequate for most purposes.

Cameras for robots are usually analog. They are small and you don't need any special control for them other that using perhaps an arm to mount the camera in order to change the focus. There are literaly hundred of miniature cameras available that are usable for robots. Most of them require a RF decoder on the receiver side. As the camera does not interact with the brain on board you can chose it based on size, power requirements, color/B/W, etc.

As for sensors, there are thousand of them. The most obvious choice for starters are, for obstacle avoidance, infrared detectors, ultrasonic rangers and mechanical switches; for bipeds, accelometers and gyros; for general orientation, electronic compass and encoders. You can add many more depending on your robot needs: line followers, color detectors, pyro sensor, thermo sensors, etc. Some of them are inexpensive while others are very expensive.
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